Gumby

Acetone In Fuel Said to Increase Mileage 15-35%

http://pesn.com/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/

HalfInchWrench

I for one won't be using it. Ever see how it reacts with rubber and plastic? Fuel system is full of those materials.

Apeiron

I won't be using it either, but have you ever seen how gasoline itself reacts with rubber and some plastics?

HalfInchWrench

Yes, I would assume the materials in the fuel system are gasoline safe. Acetone is a whole nother beast. Seems to be a much stronger solvent than gas.

I rebuilt a snowblower carb a few years ago and forgot to remove a couple of O rings. Soaked the carb in Acetone. They swole up quite a bit and they are gas safe O rings.

rgarcia63

In the early days of automobiles con artist were selling acetone as a fuel additive, needless to say it did give the power, but it also eat up all the gaskets!!

SSC

I doubt a small amount of acetone would damage the fuel system, if you had the tank full of the stuff yea I could see it.

Last time I bought a quart of acetone it was near $4, I think I'd rather have the 1 1/2 gallons of gas instead.

ede

any more if you buy a gallon of it they think you're running a meth lab

Gumby

What about

"Contrast with Alcohol

In contrast, alcohol has been shown to be corrosive in an engine, yet they put THAT into gasoline. Alcohol in general is anti-mileage. Alcohol is no good in fuels. In Brazil, millions of engines and fuel systems were ruined by alcohol. Yet they are talking of doubling the amount of alcohol in gasoline."

We all know that if you want to turn your car into a alcohol racer, you gotta change the entire fuel system. And it is true that they keep adding more and more alcohol to gas. Think it IL where its now up to 20%.

2-3oz in 10gal can't affect parts as much as a 10-20% mix of alcohol???

Course though lots of racers stop off at the paint store to mix up a batch of chemical to produce their own special racing fuel. Even heard of some using aviation fuel and then adding a mix of paint store products to get insane octane ratings.

Apeiron

Not alcohols are created equal. Ethyl alcohol is added to pump gas, methyl alcohol is racing fuel and needs a new fuel system.

In any case, when the site claims propane is the ideal fuel, I'd take anything else they have to say with a grain of salt.

Gumby

Ya know, at 60cents a gallon. Propane don't sound so bad.
Course your not gonna be racing on propane or doing 9 sec runs but this $2gal stuff is making my wallet hurt.

I'm ready to try anything once.

Though in all honesty. I have noticed a bit higher mileage when I avoid the 10% alcohol gas. But that is not always a choice.

sp63

funny story. i saw this on a local board alst weekish and last night i put like 2 oz in my gas tank.


will report back later findings... so far no bad news yet (50 some odd miles..)

Gumby

Oh ya? Cool.

cause really .I don't think 1 part acetone per 5,000 parts gasoline is going to matter much as far as eating away your cars fuel system.

HalfInchWrench

History always repeats it's self no matter how much wanring is said from folks that know.

Gumby

"Use of alcoholic beverages enhances toxic effects. Exposure may increase the toxic potential of chlorinated hydrocarbons, such as chloroform, trichloroethane."

HAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHHHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAA

If your doing shots of acetone for goodness sake put down that beer.



http://www.msdssearch.net/MSDSSearch.asp

Here's the hazardous effects of Acetone:

3. Hazards Identification
Emergency Overview
--------------------------
DANGER! EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. VAPOR MAY CAUSE FLASH FIRE. HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. AFFECTS CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM.

SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Rating: 2 - Moderate
Flammability Rating: 3 - Severe (Flammable)
Reactivity Rating: 0 - None
Contact Rating: 3 - Severe
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES & SHIELD; LAB COAT & APRON; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES; CLASS B EXTINGUISHER
Storage Color Code: Red (Flammable)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
Inhalation of vapors irritates the respiratory tract. May cause coughing, dizziness, dullness, and headache. Higher concentrations can produce central nervous system depression, narcosis, and unconsciousness.
Ingestion:
Swallowing small amounts is not likely to produce harmful effects. Ingestion of larger amounts may produce abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting. Aspiration into lungs can produce severe lung damage and is a medical emergency. Other symptoms are expected to parallel inhalation.
Skin Contact:
Irritating due to defatting action on skin. Causes redness, pain, drying and cracking of the skin.
Eye Contact:
Vapors are irritating to the eyes. Splashes may cause severe irritation, with stinging, tearing, redness and pain.
Chronic Exposure:
Prolonged or repeated skin contact may produce severe irritation or dermatitis.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Use of alcoholic beverages enhances toxic effects. Exposure may increase the toxic potential of chlorinated hydrocarbons, such as chloroform, trichloroethane.


Here's the hazardous effects of gasoline:

SECTION 3 HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION

************************************************** ************************************************** ********************
EMERGENCY OVERVIEW

- EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. VAPOR MAY CAUSE FLASH FIRE
- HARMFUL OR FATAL IF SWALLOWED - MAY CAUSE LUNG DAMAGE IF SWALLOWED
- VAPOR HARMFUL
- CAUSES EYE AND SKIN IRRITATION
- LONG-TERM EXPOSURE TO VAPOR HAS CAUSED CANCER IN LABORATORY ANIMALS
- KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN
- TOXIC TO AQUATIC ORGANISMS
************************************************** ************************************************** ********************

IMMEDIATE HEALTH EFFECTS
Eye: Contact with the eyes causes irritation. Symptoms may include pain, tearing, reddening, swelling and impaired vision.
Skin: Contact with the skin causes irritation. Skin contact may cause drying or defatting of the skin. Contact with the skin is not expected to cause an allergic skin response. Symptoms may include pain, itching, discoloration, swelling, and blistering. Not expected to be harmful to internal organs if absorbed through the skin.
Ingestion: Because of its low viscosity, this material can directly enter the lungs, if swallowed, or if subsequently vomited. Once in the lungs it is very difficult to remove and can cause severe injury or death.
Inhalation: The vapor or fumes from this material may cause respiratory irritation. Symptoms of respiratory irritation may include coughing and difficulty breathing. Breathing this material at concentrations above the recommended exposure limits may cause central nervous system effects. Central nervous system effects may include headache, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, weakness, loss of coordination, blurred vision, drowsiness, confusion, or disorientation. At extreme exposures, central nervous system effects may include respiratory depression, tremors or convulsions, loss of consciousness, coma or death.

DELAYED OR OTHER HEALTH EFFECTS:
Reproduction and Birth Defects: This material is not expected to cause birth defects or other harm to the developing fetus based on animal data.
Cancer: Prolonged or repeated exposure to this material may cause cancer. Gasoline has been classified as a Group 2B carcinogen (possibly carcinogenic to humans) by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).

Whole gasoline exhaust has been classified as a Group 2B carcinogen (possibly carcinogenic to humans) by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).

Contains benzene, which has been classified as a carcinogen by the National Toxicology Program (NTP) and a Group 1 carcinogen (carcinogenic to humans) by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).
Contains ethylbenzene which has been classified as a Group 2B carcinogen (possibly carcinogenic to humans) by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).
Contains naphthalene, which has been classified as a Group 2B carcinogen (possibly carcinogenic to humans) by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).
See Section 11 for additional information. Risk depends on duration and level of exposure

HalfInchWrench

Where did you copy and paste that 4 times from?

84 Z-28 350

he hit the back button 4 times....I'm guilty of that myself...but not 4 times

AlkyIROC

Acetone = bad
Ethyl alcohol = corn alcohol = drinkable = normally added to gasoline
Methyl alcohol = wood alcohol = poisonous = race fuel

I run straight methyl alcohol in my race car. I need to add a lube to the fuel to keep the valves and seals lubricated but I'll never go back to race gas.

There are many other things less harmfull than acetone that you can add to gas to make it better but the increased cost isn't worth it. The main ingredient in those octane boost products is Toulene. To increase 92 octane pump gas to 100 octane gas by adding toulene you need to put about 3 gallons of toulene into 10 gallons of gas. It's cheaper to buy 100 octane gas.

Even putting a gallon of methynol into 10 gallons of gasoline will help a lot better than acetone will and be less harmfull to your engine.

As for increased mileage, I doubt it. Changing the octane rating of a fuel does little to increase mileage unless your engine is detonating on lower octane and the computer is retarding the timing.

Make your own high octane fuel but it's not usually cheaper.

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html

As for propane, I've seen a few 9 second propane powered cars.

http://www.alternatefuelsracing.com/
http://www.dragracecanada.com/hotzone/pro_0054.htm

Gumby

Yikes, sorry guys a mod will need to clean that up.Ya know that message that pops up saying you can only post every 30 sec, it never popped up, so I hit the button a few times but still the post never went through on my end. And I got a blank page.

Sorry

-------------

I did dig and find the old scam info.
It used in a scam but only tot rick people into thinking a car could run on water. Well actually it did run on water.

'Seems a man would come to town and tell one and all that
he had a (modern/space alien/hidden government, fill in the blank that plays best to the audience) substance that when
added to plain water, would run a car. He would then fill a car gas tank with water, add a small amount of the 'miracle' stuff,
and drive the car. It would work, the marks would shell out their money, and the grifter would leave town. When anyone ran
the car for more than a couple of miles, the engine would overheat, and if pushed too hard, seize up.'

So cars do run on water????

sp63

ok uhm, first off, i didnt add the acetone in order to raise my octane, i have no need to do that. i DID pour some in because i figured the claim of better mileage was worth a shot. (reason being : surface tension of gasoline)

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Sure! Just split the water to extract the hydrogen, load it into an expensive experimental fuel cell vehicle, and your good to go.

MrDude_1

oooh yea... i REALLLY trust this guy.

pvt num 11

Energy barrier? Surface tension? IS that a duck I'm hearing? I think I understand the surface tension aspect of what they're trying to say, but that is this about the energy barrier?

safemode

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't dismiss the article outright because it sounds crazy. While he may have be exaggerating a bit because it's in his best interests to make acetone look good, it appears he's not alone in using acetone to boost fuel mileage. Alcohol does indeed inhibit fuel mileage, I've noticed it every winter when they used to only add it during the winter.

http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel14.html

So it's been used as a race fuel additive (at least for starting ) for decades.

The thing is, acetone is something like 17.48 bucks a gallon. When using the recommended 5-10 percent ( of say a 12 gallon tank) that gives you $10.49 to $21.00 for every tank only giving you 15-30% increase in mileage. Now that means you add enough acetone to buy another 4.5-5 gallons of gas, for only a 15-30% increase in mileage, at best (30% increase) it barely evens out to simply going back to the pump more often when you look at the costs. That's at best ideal improvement.

So sure, even if it does what the guy says it does in the best possible situation, the cost of it makes it pointless. Though, if for some reason the price went down somewhat in the future, we may indeed see many products going on the market containing mostly acetone mixtures.

sp63

dunno where you found acetone for 20 bucks or whateevr but at ace hardware they sell it for about 4 bucks in a huge container. i used to buy it all the time (potato guns).

Gumby

The article said add 2-3 oz per 10 gal.
A quart of acetone cost 4something near me.

Gumby

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directo..._Fuel_Additive

Gumby

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...ne/message/126

We run a ratio of 1:320 acetone to gasoline (4 oz per 10 gal). This creates a 10% increase in MPG (conservatively) which translates to a 10% savings in fuel.

Therefore, for every gallon of acetone you run through your car, you save 32 gallons of fuel (10% of 320 gallons).

1 gallon of acetone costs about $10.00
32 Gallons of fuel costs about $64.00

Therefore, for every gallon of acetone used, you save $54.00 (as of this writing [March 31, 2005]).

safemode

iTrader: (1)

1 gallon of acetone doesn't cost 10 bucks, it costs closer to 18 or much more depending on the purity. 2 other people have verified local prices, My search of internet prices yield about that before shipping. If you want pure acetone it's going to cost close to 80 bucks (reagents grade for scientific use).

I misread the use of 5% and 10% quantities, that was for soaking parts.

So in reality it's more like .23% every 10 gallons. Quite a big difference there and is cost-effective, assuming you aren't losing a significant portion to the atmosphere. It's rapid vaporization makes me wonder how much of that gallon you just bought is actually going to make it t the gas tank. Your loss of the chemical would increase dramatically as the container is emptied, much more so if it's left in the car and not refrigerated ... Too bad nobody's done any mass measurements after opening the cap to add some to the tank and comparing it to what they should have.

I know acetone isn't 10 bucks a gallon, but even at 20 bucks, 1 gallon should last for 32 complete fillups (assuming no loss). That comes down to having to fill up almost 3 times (total not 300% less) less if it improves mileage by 10%.

Also, the gallon of acetone should last you a very long time, 32 fillups equals like the better half of 6 months. It seems to me that these people using acetone aren't seeing that kind of use out of it, though none of the posts on their sites mention how often they have to buy another gallon of acetone, only the calculations of how often under ideal circumstances.


Another thing that should be noted to anyone here wanting to use it (And i do) is that they are testing on 0 degree advance, using 87 octane gas. I run 10 degrees advanced on premium fuel. If you're going to see any gains, you would have to change your timing if you're going to use 92 octane opposed to 87.

sp63

i have my timing set at 6* and i run 93/92 all the time. and like i said, i dunno where you guys live. but i can go to ace right now and buy a huge bottle of acetone for about 5 bucks.

Gumby

I like vacuum timing better. I set my V8 to pull 17-19 on the Vac gauge. Car is super responsive and I'm wearing out my 1 drive tire.

I don't have a clue to the actual timing. Don't reall care.
It never felt so good the way it is now.

Apeiron

What percentage of it is actually acetone though?

MechCD

I've seriously been looking into making moonshine for fuel. You can actually get a permit from the ATF to make it as long as you mix in 15% gasoline so nobody drinks it. A search for E85 brings up lots of good information. It's not as stupid as it sounds. Moonshine is essentially ethanol which may already be added to fuel in some areas. I guess it has the habit of eating fuel system components though

My buddy added up the costs (not including the still and 15% gas) and came up with about $1.40 a gallon for the stuff. Fuel crisis my rear end, you can made this stuff using corn. Heat can be provided using wood if we run out of propane or natural gas.

Gumby

Ya can't water down acetone???

Apeiron

Yes you can. Unlike paint thinner, acetone is perfectly miscible in water.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

It may be cheaper, but it gets less mileage. Pure ethenol gets like 1/3 of the mileage, mixes bring you anywhere from 10% less mileage to over 20% as seen on the road in real life.

This thread talks about acetone because not only does it increase mileage and decrease the pollutants that emissions testing tests for, but it costs less than just using more gas. And at 15% gas, you're going to be hurting your mileage a lot with that ethenol mix, to the point of making it more economical to just buy regular gas. 1.40 a gallon is nice, but when it goes just over half as far as regular gas, your savings goes down the drain. If acetone is found to not damage your car then your savings actually go up compared to just buying more gasoline.

MechCD

Very true, I just figured I'd throw in some info on it because it seemed relevant (maybe it wasn't)

safemode

iTrader: (1)

Well, I picked up a bottle that will last me 2 tanks for less than 90 cents. From this i should be able to determine if it gives me any gain in mileage before i go ahead and spend the money for a whole gallon.

So far the only opposition to this additive has been plastic corrosion and stripped of the lubrication on cylinder walls. The latter only being a factor if you added a lot, since alcohol and gasoline already has that property but obviously when the air fuel mixture is correct, this doesn't happen. So far for plastic concerns, the only thing that seems to suffer any problem in most people's injection systems is some gasket material swells on the order of 1% or so, nothing gets eaten away in the fuel lines or injectors.

So I'm going to go ahead with this little experiment in my 92 305 tbi camaro. Currently i get ~26mpg highway cruising at 65mph using random fuel (likely has mtbe and 10% alcohol since this was during winter). I wont be driving much highway though in the next couple of fills, mostly city. City brings my miles per tank close to 200, so we'll see just what it is over the course of this next week.

Nate86

Although I wouldn't describe it the way the author of this article does, there is some truth to this "energy barrier" that he talks about.

The process of changing state (states being liquid, gas and solid) obviously requires that heat be absorbed or released. However, under certain conditions heat may be added to a substance without an accompying rise in temperature.

For example, when heat is supplied to a glass of ice water the temperature of the ice water remains a constatnt 0 degrees C until all the ice has melted. If adding heat does not raise the temperature, where does the heat go? In this case, the added heat went to disrupting the crystaline structure of the ice cubes instead of raising the temperature of the water itself.

This type of heat is referred to as "Latent Heat".

So, what does this have to do with Acetone improving gas milage?

Well, first let's go back to what was originally stated in the article:
The author states that water sometimes reaches 300 degrees F before vaporizing, when it is a common fact that what boils at 212 degrees F. What is the deal here?

In some cases, the energy absorbed by the water molecules are used solely to give them the motion they need to escape the surface of a liquid to become a gas. This energy is referred to as latent heat of vaporization.

Let's take the same principle and apply it to gasoline. Gasoline must be fully vaporized for complete combustion in the engine. If the gasoline is not given enough heat to escape the surface of the liquid form to become a gas (vapor), then some of the gasoline is wasted (due to incomplete vaporization).

Apparently, the author claims that acetone itself interacts with gasoline in a way that allows it to vaporize but requires less latent heat than pure gasoline would, thereby improving gas milage.

I'm not going to say whether or not putting acetone in your gas tank will improve gas milage, because honestly I don't know. And I do have some critique of this article as well, even though most of it makes sense. Take this quote for example:
The words "stirs up" seems to imply that acetone makes the fuel molecules move faster to break the surface tension. However, faster moving molecules generally means increased temperature. From this quote, one could logically assume that the author is implying that acetone raises the temperature of gasoline itself, which is incorrect.

In closing, the article itself seems to be based on factual information, but the descriptions and processes of how acetone actually improves the effeciency of gasoline are rather vague and unclear.

I guess the only way to find out if this really works is to try it yourself, if you bold enough.

P.S. - Please let me know if there is anything in my post that is incorrect. I'd hate for someone to read this and assume it is correct when it is not.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

I am currently leaning my car on acetone as an additive. I buy gasoline from a liberty station nearby and it doesn't mention anything about having alcohol mixed in for "cleaning detergents" etc. Since i still had a half a tank left, i decided to only put in 1 oz or so, I'll be putting in 4oz's when i fill it up completely. I dont think i put in enough to impact the engine much at all, but I did notice that the resonating my car always gets when the rpm is a little below 1 grand no longer happens. So the effect of acetone has on things non-mileage related are not merely subjective. I may be doing some highway mileage this coming weekend if the weather is good, so i'll definitely be able to notice then. Otherwise the only way i'll be able to measure the mileage with all the city driving i do is if i can make it more than 2 weeks without filling up.

So far so good though.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Or, you could have by editing and deleting the extra post.

Next time, perhaps...

Streetiron85

I use acetone on a regular basis for fiberglassing. It was about $40 for 5gal last time I bought it.
The stuff from ace is watered down, or impure, in ways that are obvious to anyone who uses it regularly. It's the worst stuff out there.
I just wanted to suggest to anyone who wants to try acetone, get some real acetone at the paint store, not ace brand.
I might try some in the tank of my old jap truck to see how it works.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

update so far. I've gone 40 miles on a fresh new tank of 91 (whatever premium is in the NE US) octane (as far as i can tell, non-crazy detergentified) gas. The gas tank is still more than 7/8ths full, i'd say it's even more than 15/16ths full. The needle is almost touching the full line still. My exhaust fumes dont smell at all when i turn the car off, before they would smell like gasoline a bit. Like i said before too, the car idles differently, I dont get any sort of resonating like i used to before. Acceleration is also different, idle to part throttle to idle to part throttle etc is much smoother (stop and go traffic) very little peddle is required. I find myself spending a lot more time below 2000rpms in my everyday stop and go city traffic.


Well, i'm only 40 miles into this new tank of gas, I put roughly 4.5oz of acetone in full tank. My previous tank was half full when i added about 1.5 oz of acetone (to get the car used to it) and i refueled when i had .5 gallons left in the tank.

Suffice it to say that so far, acetone has been impressive, both in reduction of emissions and apparently more efficient engine performance. No melting fuel pump or corroded gaskets yet.

Gumby

Every time I tried to edit it, I got PHP errors.
Maybe if the forum worked right next time....

Gumby

I noticed the same things. I only put it in my Buick wagon so far and it was smoother. exhaust smelled cleaner but over all everything just seams to purr just a tad better then before. Could be the acetone cleaning out my carb but... Didn't notice any exhaust sound improvements as my right side donut started leaking.

I did soak some O-rings in a 1/3 mix over night and noticed no changed. The plastic 2 liter bottle was fine also.

Streetiron85

I'm about to try soaking a holley accelerator pump diaphregm in the 3oz/10gal mix, just to see how that looks after a month.
Soft neoprene or rubber parts like O-rings and pump diaphragms or plungers are the things most likely to be effected.
I have seen straight acetone swell up some O-rings and attack other soft parts pretty quickly. But it may be possible that some soft parts are less effected or that parts could be found that aren't effected at all. Such as parts for use with methanol.
Anyhow, it seems like something worth experimenting with.

Gumby

Yea parts in straight acetone show effects real quick but I think it being watered down with gas it has less of an effect.

Streetiron85

It's kinda hard to tell without trying. Prolonged exposure with a diluted mix might be bad or might not be.
The thing that has me most worried is the holley acc pump parts, cause if the diaphragm cracks, fuel can leak and cause a fire.
Been there.... Done that.... Don't want to go back.
A Qjet wouldn't be as bad cause a pump plunger won't leak externally.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

over 200 miles and i still have a quarter tank left. I had about 85 miles at 3/4 tank. This is with roughly 2/3 city and 1/3 highway and the highway was with the t-tops off doing 65-70mph.

I know I'm going to get over 250 miles out of this "tank" of gas and regardless of how large the tank is (15.5 gal) i always fill up to roughly 12 gallons so that ends up being over 20mpg. That's pretty good considering it's mostly city.

bluzman2004

Did anyone end up with some good conclusions on this? I had heard of this a while ago and wanted to try it, too.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

I used a much of a gallon can of acetone over the course of a few months. It seems like the benefits of mileage decrease over time. Though, it's really hard to tell for sure without a meter. It does make a real difference, just not sure how much... You could always tell when i had some in the tank, the exhaust would sound noticably different.

No detrimental effects from it. Only downside is having to put it in whenever you fill up. You lose a lot of it pouring from the large container to a small portable one and then into the gas tank.