Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

I'm in the process of doing the 749 swap and I'm running into some problems. First off the background.

I just finished a custom install of a Novi 2000 in an otherwise stock '91 305 TPI. Installed 36lb/hr injectors Repinned the harness to run the syty code in the 730ecm. Got my new 2 bar Map sensor in. Made the necessary changes to the chip and turned the key on. Everything acts as normal but my scanner will not connect. I've tried datamaster and EASE but neither of them will work. Put the old chip in and use the proper versions of the scan tools and it connects. Doesn't even throw a code of any kind, just wont connect. I even tried multiple chips. Tomorrow I'll try just running straight syty code with no changes and see if it does anything. I've repinned back to stock for now hoping to get it running long enough to set the timing but even thats not cooperating.

When I swapped back to the 730 setup I also still had the 2 bar map in and noticed the map voltage was 4.80 put in the 1 bar and it was 4.80 as well. Could this be problem 2? I would expect the 2bar map to be at about 2.50v , did they give me the wrong map sensor?

Grumpy

Sounds like it to me.

funstick

yeah a 2bar should come in at 2.35 - 2.4 volts koeo tested.

as for the aldl. ive had trouble syncing once and a while. trying hitting the ecm with a shutup or a force data command. and diable the sync modes. usually mine will link up. ive found the 749 to be a bit buggy on older laptops and the software can really put soem demands on to. just depends are you getting and SES light ?

also are you doubling the Bin for the 29c256 chip ?? the $58 is only 16k a 29c256 is $32k. so to use one you have to double the binary.

SATURN5

Did the MAP sensor plug in to the exisiting plug without modifications?

2 BAR MAPs have a slot in the center pin. 1 BAR don't..

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, for the help guys. The map sensor plugged right in, didn't even think of that, guess it goes back today for the right one.

As for the ecm, It doesn't set any ses light. If I put it in diagnostic mode she blinks the all clear signal so it seems to be ok in that regard. Guess I'll just keep hacking away at it, never paid attention to the advanced comm settings in datamaster. I'm running a 29c256 and just doubling the bin.

icecold

i know this suonds stupid but are you entering a sy/ty vin into your scanner so it trys to connect .as i dont beleave that your regular vin will work any more. will be attempting my own change to 58 this weekend good luck getting yours going.
pete

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

Now I'm completely stumped. I managed to set the timing by taking an old distributor cap, cutting a hole out at the #1 terminal, to line up the distributor, then zero it in with the timing light by just cranking the engine, so I know the timing is right. Still wont start. I'm even back to the 730 code and pinning. I've checked everything over repeatedly. No dice. As a last ditch effort I tried starting fluid and did nothing but produce a large fireball out the intake. The injectors aren't leaking, thats verified, fuel pressure stays just fine. I've got timing I've got spark, that leaves fuel. I know it's getting fuel because I got it to run briefly once. Just once and it wasn;t pretty. Are 36# injectors just too damn big for the 305? I've run so many differant chips it would make your head spin. I've put the mityvac on the regulator to lower the fuel pressure as a test, nothing. Any thoughts would be greatly apprecited, I'm totally lost. Next I guess the old injectors go back in. I truly hate the engineers who designed the TPI setup. Gotta rip the whole damn intake apart again.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

What did you change in the sy/ty bin in order for the 36#'s to delivery the proper fuel?

RBob.

Grumpy

If you have the timing set right at 0 it might not light the engine, set it up to like 10.

Hook a LED or something across the an injector set of pins and make sure the light flashes while cranking.

Just chased around for a junk pickup coil on one car, wa intermittent a real PITA, hang in there you'll get it.

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

The timing is at 6 and when I changed code I changed the injector constant to 36, changed the cyl# disabled the egr and changed the timing to 6. I think that was it, notes are in the car. When I switched back I used my old bin and just upped the injector size to 36. Think I'm gonna go back to 749 before pulling the injectors, at least I got the engine to do something with the 749 code, now I've got the right MAP so we'll try what worked before.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Your engine is flooded. The injector constant in the sy/ty bin doesn't do anything.

Change the BPC vs EGR table for EGR of 0 %.

A search for this will turn up a post of mine where I also give the math to calculate the new BPC.

RBob.

justme

I was thinking of trying the 749 swap later. If the injector constant doesn't change anything in the bin how does the computer know the flow rate of the injectors you are running? Or does it assume stock injector flow rate?

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

Well I've repinned back to 749 got the new map in and figured out how to get datamaster to connect. Verified the injectors are actually being fired. Now for the whole Base Pulse Constant issue. I'm assuming this is the formula to calculate the BPC:

BPC = 730.75 * (VOL / RATE)

; VOL = Vol of 1 Cylinder in liters
; RATE = Injector flow in gms/sec
;
; gms/sec = (lbs/hr / 3600) * 453.6
;

If so the numbers don't seem to jive with my calculations.

I have a VOL of .623 and a rate of 4.536 to yield a BPC of 100.2?
Am I missing something here? My current value was .089

RBob

iTrader: (1)

That is the correct post. As for the 100.2 vs .089 I imagine that the bin editor is doing some kind of conversion.

You need to enter 100 (decimal) into the bin for the BPC. Unless you know the conversion equation used it may be easier to use a hex editor and change BIN location $40E to $64 (same as 100 decimal).

(to keep things in line this is for the $58 sy/ty bin).

RBob.

funstick

down load the TDF editor and change the multipier to 1. and the units to 1 and the max mi values to 1 and 255 respectively.

also there is a bit flag you can enable in the $58 that should turn the injector constant on. i havent tried it but its fair game.

Grumpy

Where is it?.
I haven't seen the IC called for in the code anywhere.

funstick

look at the air fuel word options. 334.

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the advice, downloaded the TDF editor and made the changes, that put everything into perspective. Stock settings went to 134, my calculation was 100 so that kinda put things together. Of course the damn thing still wont run. The chip should be right now, but I still get nothing. I don't think my problems are chip related any more. I'm really at a loss now. Ran beautiful before I pulled the intake now I cant get it to run even switched back to the 730 code. Got it stripped down yet again, tomorrow I'll swap the old injectors back in and see if it'll at least run. Might be the new injectors. If not I upset something in the whole process I just cant figure out what.

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

Got the old injectors in redid the chip and nothing. Finally pulled the drivers side valve cover and rechecked the distributor, it was 180 out The worst part is I checked it several times and it was right. Had it right the first time but it was a tooth or two off, I noticed everytime I pulled the distributor it would shift a bit, but I dont recall ever going 180 out with it. Just messing with too many factors between timing the chip the wrong MAP sensor and the new injectors. Oh well, just gotta put the big injectors back in now and start getting the chip dialed in. Thanks again for all the help

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

Well I'm getting closer. It's together and running but it looks like the injectors are very much on the large side for the engine. Running very rich. BLM's keep hitting 80, idles for a little while and then it sets a flag and stalls. BPW at idle is hanging around 1.00 and I've been playing around with asynchronous pulse, thank *** for promgrammer, tunercat hardly has any of the tables for most of these things.

Where should I go from here? I was thinking about lowering the BPC untill I can get the idle mixture in the ballpark, probably add a bit of timing too. The tough part is getting the idle at least semi stable. Wasted alot of time buring chips untill I realised that the 749 will use a set idle RPM when the ALDL is active. It was set to 1250, no wonder I couldn't get the idle down at all Another value not in tunercat. Is there a way to turn that feature off?

YenkoZ28

Look at the spark tables too, for the wandering idle. Mine still wanders a bit, but the spark deffently helped it out. I'm running 30lb/hr injectors on my 305 and it took a lot of trimming in the low rpm range to get it leaned out. You may try bumping your pressure down to 38 or so that would help.

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

Well the idle is a bit more stable now, added some timing and played a bit with the IAC settings, has a bit of a stalling problem if I rev it but it's improving. She is nearly undriveable right now on the street thought. Gotta go through my scans and see whats happening. Any more than very light throttle and it bucks like it's the end of the world at about 2500rpm.

Any one with an other wise stock 305 TPI care to share a worked over BIN? Would be nice to see what kind of changes others have made since most with 30lb injectors say the tune is otherwise pretty close on. Gotta get a romulator, already 30+ chips into this today alone, that would make this process a WHOLE lot easier.

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

Ok now I really have a problem, my primary transportation just took a dump. If anyone has a chip already worked for a stock 305 I really need it now. Close will do, I just need drivable, I can work out the rest later.

justme

Funstick, I downloaded the TDF Editor and opened the $58 file and but can't find the headings "multiplier" and "min" and "max" that you are referring to. I did open the correct table "Base Pulse Constant Vs. Desired %EGR"

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

It's possible funstick was using a differant version of the editor, or was just thinking off the top of his head waht to change. Heres what I changed to get the proper values.
Edit step size 1
Minimum Table value 0
Maximum table value 255
Scale factor 1

Entered 100 for my value, checked the bin and it came up $64 so looks like I got it right.

Gotta brush up on my hex, haven't done anything with that knowledge since high school. I have my romulator ordered and on the way so I'm going to be using the TDF Editor alot for the next few weeks. Gotta add a bunch of new tables to the $58 TDF so I can use it with the Romulator. Promgrammer is great but can't use it with the romulator. So I'm going to go through and Identify the tables I really need to edit on the fly like the IAC and idle stuff.

justme

Let me know your progress on that. Might be very helpful to me in a few weeks when I get ready to cross that bridge.
Thanks for the reply.

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

Well she's running fine now. Started the tuning over from scratch with a differant sy/ty bin. Could have been the bin or just a stray value I screwed up. Regardless she's running pretty good now. Idle still hunts but everything else is pretty good. Time to start work on the VE tables. Thanks for all the help everyone.

justme

Just out of curiosity, what bin are you using. I compared a few of the bins briefly and seemed there was some differences in spark tables. i didn't get a chance to compare fuel maps though.

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

I'm using BBZB 1580 now, not sure which one I was using before I wiped all the old stuff I was working with out so as not to confuse anything.

justme

Do you know if there is some kind of AFR vs. temp table somewhere in there. I noticed on a log that during ther first part of my cruising the blms stay around 128 but as the engine temp and iat climbed towards the end, my BLM's started falling and the car started loading up. What is your road speed constant set on? I just noticed my MPH are way off and I have it set to 4006 ppm.

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

Not sure if this is it but maybe F56 in promgrammer? Cold engine temp dependant AF ratio vs coolant temp and (n2mapld) Haven't gotten that far in to things yet. Still trying to get the basics nailed down.

Balael6

What program are you guys using to edit the bin? I've been following all these posts for a while since I've got my 749 almost ready to fire up, but I'm worried about the injector constant not having any effect on prom, where at in tunercat am I looking to change the bpc to accept 42 lb/hr injectors? Or does that bit flag work to turn on the injector constant? Thanks guys in advance.

Pj

SATURN5

I use Programmer by Bill Cagano. See www.syty.net forums for more info on this cheap ($10), $58 specific editor.

IIRC Mangus's editor will work too, tho I am not sure how complete the current TDF is..

There isn't a IC in $58. Table F28 works best for global fuel change.
BW

Balael6

I tried looking at promgrammer again, but this time for some reason I cannot open that .jar file for some reason, is there any trick to getting it to open through java. So if I had to change a value in tunercat to accomadate my 42 lb/hr injectors,, what would I change? I looked for the bpc or bpw table in TC, but I cannot find anything.

Thanks
pj

SATURN5

Upgrade to Java 1.4

Table F28. Base Pulse Constant vs desired EGR.

Balael6

Ok, so that is what I would change, I just figured it was called something else. Right now I think all the values are .09(sorry, i'm at work), now is that the value for the syclone 30lb/hr injectors on a v6? Now I was reading the posts on calculating the bpc, i am getting a result of 86.02, I'm not exactly sure what I should put in the fields.

I installed java 1.4, and it still will not open the .jar file with java, it keeps opening it with my zip program, then when I try to open prom.jar with other programs such as "java", "javaw", or "javac" i still get nothing, heh, you figure three semesters of java in college would help me with this, but i'm lost, i'm about to reinstall windows again to solve this.

PJ

SATURN5

Strange....

Java 1.4 works fine..

Try downloading a new copy of Promgrammer from the SyTy site..

Once you get it working, please remember to pay Bill should you choose to keep it.

Balael6

So once I get my promgrammer working, I just enter 86.2 into field f28? Is there another conversion i should do with the number or does the program do it?

PJ