spjim

can somone out there tell me if there is someone out there with a Calif smoge leagel turbo or supercharger kit for a 88 2.8 V6? I can't seam to find anything on the older cars. Thanks

89V6FBIRD

Please read the sticky at the top.
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=171305
Right now headers from Pacesetter are being cleared for CARB. That's probably the best you can do. Otherwise we're SOL because any power adder will have to be custom, and that will not pass smog.

spjim

What about swaping the 2.8 for the 3.8 turbo?

Doward

It's a totally different mounting, block, tranny, everything, even the ECU.

Vortex and I are working on a turbo kit for your vehicle... unfortunately, I have no idea how to go about getting it smog legal.

That's if I even can, since it requires removal of the smog pump... but then, I don't believe all the 2.8's came with smog pumps...

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

not sure if the V6 and V8 xmember is the same but the buick motor used the V6 mounting holes already drilled into the V8 crossmember. Other than that, yeah EVERYTHING is different lol

camaro_junkie

Is this correct? I thought Pacesetter still needed a test car to route the pipes? Did that already happen and they are being CARB approved?

614Streets

Yes Fageol Superchargers in EL cajon California makes a supercharger kit that fits the gm 2.8 v6 and is smog legal. If you want Marks phone number I'll go grab it. Its isnt made for mpfi , although he did used to make mpfi 2.8 supercharger kits, If you have the cash he will make it. He does still have the basic 2.8 tbi and carb kits.

camaro_junkie

Well, that's news to me. At the beginning of the summer I would have been very interested in a supercharger kit. Unfortunately I spent all my money.

BitchinRS

614Streets,

Whats the number?????? Even if all he has is the SC I will work on making custom brakets and stuff. I'm just not sure what size SC to use. I mainly want to improve low end tourqe.

camaro_junkie

I emailed the guy a couple of days ago and haven't heard back from him yet.

camaro_junkie

Here is what I heard back from Fageol superchargers for those who are interested:

"The only 2.8 MPFI we made anything for was the Fiero. It had steel heads and we made a throttle body injection system and ran it with stock ECM with our chip. The basic S-10 kit will cost you $1250. It is hard to estimate fabrication costs to covert it to fit your vehicle. The installation involves removing intake manifold and installing supercharger intake manifold assembly and AC/ALT brackets. Call me at 619 447-1092 and I'll be happy to discuss it with you."

Is the Fiero engine the same as ours? That would make it easier if it was. Then he can probably do one up for someone. I'll inquire further when I get some money.

BitchinRS

The the fiero engines are basicly FWD engines. So no there are not the same, but it would most likely work with some fugging around.

it sounds like the only SC he has is the roots type. Now lets see if I can spell... I'm looking for a centerfugal type SC. The roots type are cool and all, but major PITA to trick the EPA ****'s with one. All though they do have thier advantages. I basicly want to make a setup that I can pull off my car every 2 years with minamal hassle and go pass the smog test with. Changing intake manifolds wont be an quick swap.

This is why I kept my original intake ducting. The they wont let me pass a smog test with my CIA setup. Just swap back to original coffe can style intake and they leave me alone for another 2 years.

BitchinRS

The other problem is our cars are MPFI / TPI . His setup is for TBI. So it may not work with out some major reworking.

camaro_junkie

I understood that he said the Fiero setup was MPFI. They have TBI setups for 2.8 blazers. But even if the Fiero engine was FWD, would that mean the intake was different?

Gumby

Someone should help out Mark over at Fageolsuperchargers.com I mean for a product name like that to have a 99 cent 2nd grade html page, is not good for business. If they can't even afford to put up a decent $5 web page, how can you trust them with $1300. I wonder if they even make their products or its all a front for someone else???

A company without a good web page looks cheap, fake and might as well be on yahoo.

Matt

camaro_junkie

Ask 614Streets about the company. Maybe he knows he knows if they have credibility. Mark did send me some drawings, so maybe that means something. But even if they do have a $.02 web page, if they make a SC for the 2.8 for a "reasonable" price, then I'll buy it.

Besides, maybe this company deals mostly in local business. I mean, I haven't seen Doward's super web page for his turbo kit company.

614Streets

Gumby the Fageol family used to make trucks and buses, outboard boat engines , they were big. Now Mark runs the sho which his father ray used to own. I think its tough for mark to get all these emails he gets and have almost nobody go through with it. They make blower kits for harleys , full custom set ups , the toyota 22r , the gm 2.8. His blowers and company are well documented and are even in the book street supercharging.

If people would read what I type maybe some of you would understand that the GM 2.8 kit was 50 state emisions legal. It is crazy to see the gm 2.8 manifold. It features and egr passage inside the lower manifold and the egr mountson the tbi or carb top. It really is a magnificent blower kit. Of course there are ways to fabricate a centrifugal blower with tubing and a bracket but for the gm 2.8 v6 the roots blower will be the best power adder for it adds power linear with rpm and torque is improved much better than in another application.

I just had my Fageol rebuilt and even though I have an s10 and tbi it would be easy to go to mpfi with it. I added a pop off valve on mine which required a spacer between the manifold and supercharger but now you can see how easy mpfi would be with a spacer like this.









Also rortwein@comcast.net has a NOS B&M 2.8 , 3.1 , 3.4 blower kit for sale. You have to get creative but why not you have nothing to loose and a hell of alot less work than a turbo.

614Streets

Also if for some reason you dont like the gm tbi(?) you have other options . I was looking into this


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=33558
. Imagine that on top of a blower!

I almost have all my fabrication done. You guys wont belive my set up when you see it.

Gumby

Its no big deal. Just looks kind of crappy when a company can not even "afford" [ I assume afford as it all a matter of money] a decent web page with product info pics and more. It is a fair price for the asking it just makes me wonder. When I goto buy computer parts or most things off the web, the first thing I do is check out the webpage. A webpage is like the front office. If you walked off the street into the front office and all they had was a lawn chair and a 8in B&W TV, with some fat guy eating nacho's, you will most likley go else where.


So whats up with your pop off valve??? what that for? Like a BOV or an anti backfire thingy??? Looks very interesting. Post more pics if you wish.


Matt

614Streets

Tag proves its emissions legal

614Streets

Matt I need the pop off for this, I am running nitrous with the tbi commander 950 stand alone with tech edge v 2.0 wide band and the fageol on a 2.8 with l249f forged pistons and a new block I built with a int balance crank and hastings gapped rings at .020 tops and .025 seconds.

The pop off will prevent damage to the blower if the nitrous backfires inside the manifold.


Note the fageol normally does not sit on this spacer(will clear stock hoods from fageol) and I am fabing mine up according to my specs and how I want it laid out. Also not Fageol does supply both carb or tbi tops , I choose to make my own to have the tbi inline with the blowers inlet and I am not running it with the egr like last year.

614Streets

Lastly this is how low it sits normally on the 2.8 application http://614streets.com/rebuiltkf2.jpg

88camarov6

What kind of power are you expecting to make?

AM91Camaro_RS

i want one! 614, you mentioned the tbi setup...you mean a tb like the one pictured above? would there be any way to keep the computer and that sort of stuff or not?

camaro_junkie

614Streets: So I assume some sort of intake system sits on top of the blower where those studs are sticking out? What does that look like?

Y2KFirehawk

Wow, this topic is looking quite interesting! We've got this and Doward going! W00T!

BitchinRS

I wanted to go with a centrifugal vs. the rotts type becuase The TBI setup would require me to either figure out how to drive the injectors. Or to do it with MPFI I would have to drill and tap the manifold and make a cusotm fuel rail. I want to keep fabricating to as little as possible.

I do understand the benifits of the roots type, but don't have much free time for a bunch custom fab.

As far as the CARB # isn't that just for the original application it was desgined for (Chevy s-10), and if it is modified is no longer good?

614Streets

The Fageol supercharger kit made for the Iron head 2.8 v6 has a low profile manifold that allows it to clear stock hoods. Because of this the manifold has no provision for any pop off plate whatsoever. Being the the 60 degree v6 is so narrow , this manifold is already extended in its design to allow for the long and narrow extruded max 25 Fageol supercharger and therefore the front features the thermostat mount as well as three thermocouple bosses for various sensors.

The manifold also features a 50 state legal egr passage system which runs under the plenum area. Because of these features no extra space is available anywhere for a pop off. Under the normal usage of the supercharger kit a pop off is not nessesary. Reasons for this include the serpentine belt slipping if a backfire were to occour and moderate boost levels.

In my circumstance the supercharger will be run at higher boost levels and will also be aided with the wet 5153 tbi nos nitrous system.

I felt it nessesary to provide a escape path for the air to travel in the event that a backfire should occour. The smallest BDS backfire plate kit part number BDS-8026AK was aquired from Good Vibrations Motorsports in Whittier Califorina(1-562-945-7669) www.dragparts.com .

The fortal and 6061 aluminum used for the project was aquired from WWW.EBAY.COM and from sellers sciparts and speedymetals. The fortal bar just happened to be the right sized scrap which I had actually purchased for the Novas front and rear resevior Wet intercooler project , but oddly it ended up being just right to pursue the project.

The other aluminum I used was 6061 1/4" thick.

I first had the grueling task of cutting through the solid fortal slab with non other than a drill press to initiate the saw entry , then finished of with a skillsaw as well as a sawzall. Ironically despite many hours of cutting neither saws ruined a single blade. I am definately having the Nova intercooler water jet cut professionally but for this project the end results wre good and kept cost to a minimum.

The top half of the induction uses a holley tbi 670 cfm unit with a 5153 nos plate sitting on top of a 670 to 4 barrell holley adapter. The holley adapter sits on a fabricated 1/4" thick piece of 6061 aluminum rounding out the upper induction.

Below is where things got tricky. The stock fageol series superchargers mount with studs that are screwed into the case just adjecent to the case outlet. Stock studs protrude through the lower manifold and are secured with special nuts from the underside. Some of the studs because of their proximity to the lower manifold plenum protrude into the actual area where boost is present and into the egr passage below. This engineering feat in stock form uses copper washers to "seal" boost from entering the stud holes and entering the oil valley or egr passage. Originally when I ran the kit last year I had run it without these washers because I had bought the kit used and they were not included.

Normally I would just attept to recreate the mounting as it was originally designed but due to the pop off slab and the fact that I mini welded egr block off plates on the cylinder heads I had to come up with a slightly different approach.

Since I also wanted to be able to unbolt the supercharger from the top side posed another challange.

The solution ended up being a series of studs that attach the fortal pop off slab onto the lower manifold , however these studs only penetrate the upper mounting holes. Frome below the old exsisting stud hole provisions were tapped and bolts with teflon tape were screwed into place to keep the boost where it should be , in the plenum , not the oil valley.

With the aluminum slab mounted I then had to take two identical pieces of 6061 1/4" aluminum and mount one to the slab and another to the supercharger bottom. This required drilling the mounting holes as well as counter sinking them 3/32" and then drilling blanks out of the opposite plate so the allen heads would not interfere with the mating of the two plates. I used the 8 holes on the base of the blower to mount one section and 6 bolts to mount the other plate to the slab using helicoils. Then each piece had to be cut out to allow air to folw through them, meanwhile all this had to be mocked up in the engine bay to make sure it was all inline with the belt system.

Today I have to clean all the parts and handmake gaskets, then all I have to do Is wait for the headers to come back from jet hot , assemble, wire then Its should come alive!

http://614streets.com/blowerfabcompleted.jpg

http://614streets.com/Fageolgasket2.jpg
http://614streets.com/Fageolgasket3.jpg
http://614streets.com/Fageolgasket4.jpg
http://614streets.com/Fageolgasket6.jpg
http://614streets.com/Fageolgasket7.jpg

614Streets

614Streets

Just grab a 747 ecu and wire it up with a tbi, would be easy to do.

614Streets

From Fageol himself there are either the 2.8 rochester varajet carb units(came stock on carbed f body 2.8's) or the tbi top for s-10's. Mine is not stock and is a custom fab job for drag race performance and no emmisions / smog. Full drag race. If you wanted you could scrap the fuel injection and just make a simple 4 barrel carb adapter. I can make them at very low cost.

614Streets

The firebird and camaro came stock with a varajet 2 barrel carb. Fageols basic kit is for this application and is smog legal. I used to own an 1984 firebird se with a 2.8 v6 and it had the varajet carb. Would bolt right up. For mpfi , no. Just switch ecu and rewire to the tbi and order with the tbi top.

Use a vortech 8 rib for serpentine setups and contact me on how to set up, for older f- bodys with vee belt , fageol has the pulley system and it is set up with cog. (serpentine 2.8 water pump spins backwards, vee belt 2.8 water pump spins clockwise.

Will clear carb legal with either tbi or varajet stock kits.

camaro_junkie

614Streets: You said, and Mark said that Fageol made a MPFI SC for the Fiero... I think. I was just trying to picture how that would all fit together.

614Streets

I cannot find the picture on the fiero forum a guy had of it.
I did find this used one some guy on fiero forum is try to use. Note the tbi top http://www.fiero.nl/uploads/imgs2003/SuperChrgr_1.jpg

Lee7

When i get my turbo Firebird done, i might go ahead and do a blown S10 with a 3.4 in it. I need a truck anyways.

614Streets

Jet hot sends my black jacks back :hail:
http://614streets.com/JETHOTV6.jpg

AM91Camaro_RS

those look really nice! i was trying to figure out what kind they were, then i remembered...S-10....right? how big are the collectors on those? how much did jet hot charge for that?

614Streets

AM91Camaro they cost $195 plus shipping to get coated. Collectors are 2 1/2" , yup chevy s-10. Im trying to get some of my gm brothers to do up their 2.8/3.1/3.4 .

AM91Camaro_RS

what kind of times does that truck run? my camaro has gone 9.67 and 74 mph in the 1/8 with a 3.1. right now, i'm looking into building a 3.4 and getting one of those superchargers.

614Streets

Mid 14's on a 75 shot with the 110,000 mile stock engine no supercharger. I have no Idea how fast the new one will be ? 13's , 12's?

BlazerMaro

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, where did you get those headers 614Streets?

I like the idea of having a choice other than Edelbrock, but the only Black Jack that I know of is DynoMax, and they don't list headers for our trucks in their catalog. Are they discontinued, or is it another company that makes them?

614Streets

Yeah they are a set of old New Old stock Black Jacks I got from a guy in california , actually I bout them on ebay. I was really lucky to find them and they fit so good for a full header Im just so happy. Sadly like most 2.8 speed parts from the eighties these are discontinued.

Heddman still makes 2.8 v6 headers for s-10's both 2wd and 4wd. The 4wd appear to be full lenth but the 2wd look like 3/4. I reaserched them befor I found these. They are available from Summit or jegs and you can order them coated with hedmans htc process. I had the edelbrocks previously and although they fit good, they arent true headers and the drivers side is a measly 1 1/4 primary while the passenger side is 1 1/2. Yuck. They made them like that to match the edelbrock manifold which has supersmall drivers side runners and larger passenger side runners. Some of the goofs at edelbrock from the eighties thought it would be cute to have 1 bank make low end torque and the other make upper end power. Ironic it was never applied again and the technique is extinct. Good luck , if you keep tabs on ebay the blackjacks or cyclones may pop up.

BlazerMaro

I had a feeling I wouldn't be able to just go out and buy them.

I agree about the Edelbrock ones, they didn't seem worth it to me. I didn't know they had done that with the different sides though, sounds about par for them.

Thanks for the steer on the Hedman ones, didn't find those in my searching. I'll have to look into those. (And watch eBay!) That is one beautiful set you have though, you'll have to post pics when you're done. Love seeing ppl still keeping our trucks alive.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

There are plenty of legitimate businesses with lousy, or no, wesbites. Ever click a link from a spam email? They usually have slick websites, because they have to...its the only way they're going to get in your pocket! Its sure not due to word of mouth, which is the "best: form of advertising and what most talented automotive shops rely on. Sure, I wish everybody had a nice, well organized and helpful website, but a lot of companies don't, even now.

That blower setup looks slick as hell BTW...

spjim

I have foun Two different superchargers for the 2.8 howerver. They both tell me that they will only work with the iron heads. can someone tell me when the stoped using the iron heads?

Doward

Aluminum heads were the Gen II (?) heads used on FWD vehicles.

camaro_junkie

Where did you find these superchargers?

The_Raven

Iron heads were used on RWD vehicles, none were equipped with aluminium heads. I think the last iron head 660 was the F-body 3.4, as far as factory installed iron heads goes. GM still offers an iron head 3.4 crate engine.

Aluminium heads were used strickly on FWD cars, from '87 to the present. Previousl to '87 FWD 660 equiped cars had iron heads. The early '90s Lumina APV (minivan) also had iron heads even though it was FWD.

SpecialEditon84

Looks good. I picked up some flat black headers for my 2.8 and im planning on a nice procharger or something

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Wow! 10 year old thread brought back to life! Necroposting FTW!